Am I all not to
completely fangirl out
and embarrass myself
during this interview?
It is such a
pleasure to have the
opportunity to
interview Ellen Pompeo.
Of course, one
of television's
Yes, I believe
so. Yes, I can.
And so much more. And
I don't want to correct
Soledad O'Brien, but
it's 22 C's. 22 C's?
Thank you for
correcting me. So
offscreen, you
have used your
platform to talk
about pay equity,
creative ownership,
truth-telling in an
industry that I don't
think Hollywood's
really known for the
truth-telling part.
Producer, actor, mom.
you bring wisdom and
edge and also a
relentless drive to keep
pushing even within
a system and I want
to talk about all of
that today so thank
you for for joining
me um having me over
your career you talked
about and lately
I think as well you've
been talking about
owning your voice
what exactly does that
mean to you I think
you know it depends
on the situation I
think right now with the
onslaught of AI, we
could think about
that phrase in a
completely different way.
I think, you know,
have the confidence
and the courage to be
able to say what you
think is important
to be said, because
not everything needs
to be said. I think I
focus a lot on
intention and what is my
desired outcome. If
I decide to speak up
and I decide to make
a comment and say
something, what am I
expecting to happen
from that? Or what is
the desired result?
And will I achieve
that by speaking
up? Because sometimes
it's better to be
quiet and listen
more than you speak.
So I think it is
on a case-by-case,
individual basis.
And I feel if I can
add to the conversation,
say something
that is going to
get us closer to a
solution, is going
to be productive,
even if it's uncomfortable
or hard to say
or hard for people
to hear, then it's
worth saying. Has
that shifted over your
career when you were
first starting out,
how you thought about
your voice to now?
Well, of course, I'm
55 years old and I
have three children.
So I'm very careful
what I say, to not
embarrass my kids.
But I think that as
you get older, you
maybe learn to listen
more than you speak.
You've stepped into
producing, and you
spend a lot of time
championing new stories.
What do you look for
in a project now?
Well, I think the most
important thing for
me is to be passionate
about a story, and
producing is very,
very difficult, and
there's a million hurdles
to get through, so
you really have to be
passionate about the
storytelling and
passionate about the
group that's trying to
push this boulder up
the hill with you,
because if you're not
passionate about the
story, it's too hard to
get something made.
You really have to be
in love with the story
and have a passion
to want to tell the
story. Are there broad
topics where you're
like, these are the
things that I really
care about right now?
No, I think producing
is much more difficult
than that. I don't
have the privilege
or the luxury to be able
to say, I think this
is important and I
want to make a show
about that. Maybe some
people do. I don't.
At the end of the
day, it's a business
and they expect
your content to make
money and they will
look at your content.
profitable? Is it
a profitable idea?
For a long time, and
I'm breaking out of it
a bit now, but I believe
that the question,
you know, gets asked,
will people believe
Meredith Grey as this
character? Do we want
to see Meredith Grey do
this completely different
thing? And that's a
real conversation.
So, you know,
there's lots of
different things that
go into my decision
to put my energy
and focus into
one thing as
opposed to another.
You have said that
the truth, even if
it's uncomfortable,
is part of your power.
And when I think of
Hollywood, I don't
think of, like, you
know, tell me the truth.
I think, like, it's
a little bit the
opposite of that. How
is that your power?
I grew up in a
working-class
Massachusetts
is a, you know,
fiercely democratic
state, with
the Kennedys
being our icons.
book that I
grew up reading.
And I think that as I got
older and got
more competent,
you understand the
importance of speaking up
for people who may not
necessarily be able
to speak up for themselves.
I was also raised
in a Catholic family,
so I'm not very
religious now, but there
was this ethos growing
up of we are responsible
for one another.
We've lost a lot of
that recently with the
way we've evolved, and
technology has sort
of taken over and we're
less connected. And
I think religion used
to play a large part
in how connected we
felt to one another and
we felt more responsible
for one another and
perhaps had more
empathy because of that.
But I do attribute
the way I grew up and
the place I grew up,
as hard as it was, my
childhood was certainly
very challenging for
a lot of reasons,
but now I'm able to
recognize how many things
were instilled in me
in my youth that I've
carried through and
had the smarts to be
able to incorporate
into my daily life and
what I do every day.
This is a conference
that's full of tech
leaders who are trying
to really figure out
storytelling, right?
They're here with their
organization, but at
the end of the day,
they're trying to navigate
their own workplace
story. What advice
do you give them for
how to think about
effective storytelling,
how to make an impact
with storytelling?
I'll say and go back
to my other point,
which is listen
more than you speak,
because everybody has
a story and our stories
matter, should
matter to each other.
And we can
impact each other
greatly without
even knowing it.
So I think we can
continue to listen. And
the piece about technology
and what technology
can't replace is our
hearts and our minds
and our feeling. And
good storytelling makes
you feel. One of the
reasons people love
Grey's is they identify
with one of the
characters, whoever is
their favorite, whatever
that character is
going through, touches
something in that person's
life. We can always
watch a story and
relate something back to
ourselves, and it touches
a cord emotionally.
Storytelling will
always be the core
of all of us, our
individual stories.
How do we bring
our story, our
childhood, our adult
life experience,
our divorce, our
single parenting,
our feeling marginalized,
whatever it is,
we can always bring
our own experience,
It sounds like you're
saying a lot of
these tech leaders
should think about being
very authentic
about where they're
coming from and telling
stories more about
themselves rather
than their business.
I think, you know,
good business
is a blend of both
things, right?
But if you connect it to
yourself and something
you're passionate
and emotional about,
And if you care
about something,
it's easier to work
harder toward a goal.
how has your voice
evolved over the years
that you have been
working in a very high
profile positions i
don't know if i'm the one
to comment on myself
how you know how people
receive me or perceive
me i'm not sure
that i can answer
that i i think i
will say that how
I feel is that I
like to listen more
than I speak now.
And you say now, so
meaning when you were
younger, that wasn't
really your philosophy?
Yeah, I think, you
know, you're young
and, you know, you
have a tendency to
pop off once in a
while. I definitely...
So many questions
coming out of that one.
And listen, there have
been places and times
where that's been
really effective and
made others feel
empowered to do the same,
which has been for
the better of people
when women feel
empowered, because
so often women
don't feel empowered
to be able to say
how they feel. You
know, we did an
episode of Grey's
Anatomy one time that
I'll never forget,
and the voiceover
was a statistic
that is real, because
I checked when
they wrote it. I
said, is this real?
That women's voices,
men don't hear women's
voices the same way.
I've been married for
20 years, so I definitely
know this is true.
Men don't hear women's
voices in the same
way they hear other
men's voices. Like,
the frequency literally
does not get heard.
and so for women to
understand that and
know and say, please
don't interrupt me and
want to make their
point anyway and not
be afraid to speak up
is, you know, so it's
worth all the popping
off that I guess I
did when I was younger.
But, you know, also
to an opposite
point, I've been in
situations where I've
heard of a story and I
thought a woman wasn't
being treated well,
and I sort of
jumped in to
in an effort to
try to be helpful,
try to use my power
try to use my voice
and it wasn't welcome
and I was shocked and
it was a hard lesson
to learn I thought
it was defending
someone and sticking up
for someone and that
person didn't want it
and that was another
lesson I had to learn
wow okay maybe ask
before you know is
there some way I can
help you would you
like me to get involved
would you like me to
speak about this,
because that was a
really confusing lesson
for me, because I had
never encountered it
before, but I suppose
I wouldn't have
encountered it had I
not done it. You know,
I just rushed and
made a phone call on
this person's behalf,
and, you know,
demanded an apology,
and this person
said, I wish
you would have
let me do that.
and i assumed that that
that person because
of the state i saw
them in wasn't able
to do that and didn't
feel the power to
do that so i thought
well this is this is
where i come in and
i can do it and and
and uh and i heard
someone and uh it was a
very very valuable
lesson i think it's
back to your listen
before you do why has
representation been so
important to you over
the years on screen
behind the scenes?
Well, because
it's important
that everybody
feels seen.
I think those are
lessons that I really
learned from the early
days of Grey's Anatomy.
And I learned,
I didn't walk
onto the set
knowing that at all.
I did, as I said,
grew up in Boston,
which had a lot of
racial tension. I don't
live there anymore,
so I can't speak
to it now, but when
I was growing up,
there was a lot of
racial tension that
I was very aware
of, and it was very
confusing to me
as a young person.
But it was only
an observation.
You know, when I
was young and didn't
understand, I understood
certain things that
people have disgusting
bias, but I wasn't
educated or sophisticated
in my thoughts
about it. And then
when I got to the set
of Grey's Anatomy
and we were telling
stories and I got to
work day in and day out
with people from all
walks of life and saw
how meaningful the
stories are to people,
and then of course
meet the fans and
hear what they have
to say, I really took
on a deeper understanding
of how important
it is for everybody
to feel represented.
I think a lot of
people, when we talk
about representation,
think in front of
the camera. But
actually, representation
behind the scenes,
behind the camera,
is incredibly
important because a
lot of the power
actually lies there. And
that's the evolution
of my learning.
So I will say, I learned
how much representation
matters from
underrepresented groups.
Those were also
tough lessons in the
beginning of Days of
Grace, where I may
have seemed
ignorant and didn't
understand the impact
and the importance to
other actors or to
audience members.
It's humbling, and
it's painful, but it's
necessary. And humility
will always be your
best friend through
learning and my
evolution of that education
that I was so lucky
to get however painful
is now I understand
that I can go into
my business as a
producer and that I do
I have been educated by
Shonda Rhimes by Debbie
Allen by everybody
who I've worked with
and move forward
and make sure I educate
other people who
haven't had the blessing
of that education.
This is how we hire
people, and this is how
we make sure everybody
gets interviewed.
But, you know, I've
stepped in it many
times, and I've had
a lot of people,
marginalized
people, slap my hand
and say, don't
say that. Can't
say that. You
shouldn't say that.
And that's, you
know, what I tell
my teenagers, we
only learn from
making mistakes.
They sting, but
you never do that
again, hopefully.
I love how much you have
embraced representation
because it'd be
very easy as a white
woman not to say,
hey, I actually think
this issue about black
people is important,
right? People don't
expect it. And I think
sometimes it has an
added power because
it's not your group
that you're talking
about necessarily and
that you've learned it
in many ways the
hard way is pretty
remarkable. Yeah I've
had to you know be very
mindful you know I'm
not here to save that's
not my job so it's a
tricky line to walk
but I've how I navigate
it now is I just
try to listen and ask
if my help is needed
And then if it is,
I move forward.
And if not, I
keep my mouth shut
because I've
learned that not
everybody is asking
for me to help.
How has that
translated into the
production side of
the business? When I
started my production
company, it was
fun to be able to
say, actually, here's
what I want my
company to look like.
We're going to do
this intentionally
because I worked in a
lot of organizations
where that really
wasn't intentional. In
fact, people, I think,
often just didn't
see it. It didn't
really matter to them.
And so I have to
imagine once you're
a producer and you get
to make those calls,
you can be very
intentional about what
you want to see in
your organization.
the phrase, you know,
if you see it, you
can be it. That's
precisely my point.
You know, whatever
people's experience is
and whatever they're
exposed to, that's
what they know. So
if they don't see
anything different,
they don't realize. If
you've only ever worked
on sets where, you
know, it's a bunch
of old white men who
do whatever they want
and they marginalize
the women and don't
listen to them,
then the young male
directors coming up
will behave the same
exact way. Because
that's all they know,
that's all they've
seen, and that's all
they've been taught.
They can't be anything
they haven't seen.
So it is our
responsibility as content
creators and producers
to create an environment
where people learn,
oh, we can do
this. I have spoken in
the past about Shonda
Rhimes' attitude
toward having a baby.
actresses historically
were afraid to
tell their employers
they were pregnant,
thought they
would be fired,
afraid to ask for
maternity leave.
subscribe to any of that.
You know, the confetti
falls from the ceiling
when you say you're
pregnant, you're
having a baby, and she
figures out a way to
make it work. I told
that story a million
times because hopefully
other female producers
out there will hear
that and understand
there is a different
way to embrace female
employees and be happy
for them. And whoever
works for me, I now
adopt that attitude
because that attitude
was adopted for me.
So you can only be
what you see. So we
do have a responsibility
to move forward
in a way that's
reflective of what
we want everyone's
experience, what we
want our own experience
to be. And then
that can be other
people's experience.
Have you seen a
shift generationally?
Like over time,
you're seeing that
you have to do that
work less because
people are
beginning to get it?
Yes. I did a Hulu
show a couple of years
ago, and when we were
hiring 200 crew members,
I sort of thought I
was being very mindful
about who we were
interviewing and making
sure we were having
a wide array of
candidates to be able
to look through the
resumes and their
experience and choose from.
and I thought
I had been very
diligent and I was
sort of proud of
how much work I
put into that.
And then I got
to set the first
day and I looked
around and I said,
visually, it's not
what I was thinking.
I thought we did a
lot better than this.
you can't you have
to you have to find a
way to bring more
people in because
obviously you can't fire
somebody for you know
you can't once once
we're on set there's
nothing you can do
um but but you look
for opportunities um
so it's again it's
just keeping your eyes
open and listening
and being very aware
and intentional
in the way in the
way you you do things
and make decisions
Yeah, I think the
intention, and it
doesn't end, you
know, like over and
over and over again.
It's true. You know,
and I will say, as far
as business goes, it
makes far more sense
to be inclusive in
business because you're
opening up more
customers, more audience.
You know, I mean, you
see some of the biggest
success. Grey's
Anatomy is a massive
success because it
appeals to so many people
because there was such a
wide array of characters
on that show that
everybody can identify
with. If you don't
like me, you like this
person. You don't
identify with that person.
You identify with
this person. You see
something in them. And
it just opened that world
and that audience up
exponentially. So it
just is good business
have you do you have
an opinion on whether
you've loved the
production side more or
in front of the camera
more oh i love it all
yeah it's it's two
completely different
muscles and i think that
that's another important
uh trait to have in
business is to continue
to learn and evolve
and grow because you
can really only be
valuable if you continue
your skills and your
knowledge. If you only
are a one-trick pony
and only do one thing,
there may be somebody
who does that one
thing better than you.
Or you may get
complacent and not do
that thing as well
as you used to do
it. So the more you
continue to grow
and evolve and widen
your skill set,
you'll be more of an
asset to a company
because they can use
you for multiple things,
not just the one
thing maybe you
came into that
company doing.
Was the transition
to producing easy for
you? And not necessarily
even just for you,
but how people thought
about you. I found
it very hard to be
a TV anchor who then
was a producer because
it was hard for people.
I love the work. I
like doing everything.
But it was hard for
people to see me in
a different role
because I've been doing
something else for a
long time. Of course.
That's all anybody
wants to see.
We love Meredith
Grey so much.
And that's okay,
and I'm grateful
for it, and
it's incredible.
But obviously, Ellen
is kind of, you
know, antsy and wants
to do other things.
So, no, to answer
your question, it is
not easy to be a
producer. I'm having a
better time now
because the show that I
did a couple of years
ago, Good American
Family on Hulu, was
very successful.
And we worked
our butts off to
make sure that it
was successful.
So now, you know, I
put some points up. So
I'm getting a few more
minutes in the game.
collaboration
look like to you?
like what are the
pieces that you want to
come together for you
to say yes this is
the team that I want
to work with I think a
winning combination
is confidence in your
ideas but also be
willing to listen to
someone else's ideas
and if it's a good idea
give them credit and
say that's a good idea
we should try that is
there anything that
you wish that someone
had told you at the
beginning of your
career that you now look
back and say, oh, if
someone had just said
this to me, it would
have changed a lot?
I don't love regrets, and
But if I had to say one
thing to answer your
question, because
you're Soledad O'Brien,
I would say I
wish someone
told me to have more fun.
That's so interesting.
In the beginning of
Grey's, you know,
we did have a lot of
fun, but there was also
a lot of pressure and
a lot of drama and
a lot of different
dynamics that you've
never experienced before,
so it's hard not to
get swept up in it.
And fame and the
public eye is intense.
and I'm not going to
say I didn't enjoy
it. Of course I
did, but maybe I
would have tried to
enjoy it a bit more.
That would really be
it, but every lesson
I've learned, every time
I've fallen down, you
know, and had to
get back up and been
embarrassed or humiliated
or whatever, you know,
felt like a gut punch,
it's made me who
I am today, which is
a thoughtful person.
So I don't regret
any of it. And it's
okay that no one
gave me, people have
given me good advice,
of course, along
the way. But I think
you learn your best
lessons when you
learn them yourself.
I was going to say, I
wonder if that means
that your advice to
young actors coming
up in their first gigs
is the same thing of
like, have fun, but a
lot of these lessons
you're going to have
to learn yourself.
It's really hard. There's
a few young actors
that I've tried to
mentor and the business
is really in a bad
place right now. So
it's really hard to
give positive advice.
Yeah. Well, TV news
as well. So it's a
challenge, but I love
the idea of enjoy the
ride because no one ever
gives you that advice
and you don't want to
look back and think
oh these so many
interesting things that
you got to do and you
forgot to be in the
moment and enjoy it
yeah I mean being an
actor you're trained
to be in the moment but
sometimes the moment's
terrifying you know
I love it Ellen Pompeo
we are such big fans
of you and Meredith
Gray by the way and
we love everything you
do it's such an honor
and a pleasure to
chat with you Thank
you. Thank you. Thanks,
guys. Appreciate it.
